JAAKKO:
~™™~~’™´´±8¨8¨7¨76”4¨4™******~¨~~¨
this symbol chain marks the beginning of our chat log
KATJA:
let’s go
JAAKKO:
this chat exists in the context of Estonian Art magazine
or for that future context
i’m writing from the past
Katja is repping Estonia in Venice
let’s see
if i have a question
KATJA:
10 things you’ve always wondered about but were afraid to ask
JAAKKO:
:—p
I think the magazine is going to frame your practice within the context of post-internet art
which is how it is often contextualized institutionally
we often talk about the ambiguity of that term
and like certain frustrations that come with it
I guess my question or prompt or whatever to you would be: what would be some alternative readings / histories to your work
KATJA:
yeah i think there is a certain limitation to today’s idea of what post-internet means: corporate aesthetics, mimicry of corporate forms, etc
and that is just so narrow
or like webcam instagram personal performance stuff
or a combo of those two
at my most “corporate” installation i did in basel in 2014, with a massive growth arrow on a trampoline and a white stallion, my aspiration was always actually to somehow provoke ideas about ecologies … and corporate stuff is just one of them, but i always try to connect to wider things — environment and “nature”, artistic / pictorial cultures, relationships of these things to attention economies
JAAKKO:
it seems like there is a more fluid connection between your work and the work of, say, emily jones and joey holder, maybe marguerite humeau
like new representations of techno-biosphere or whatever
KATJA:
yeah exactly, they are some of my favorite artists of the moment
emily’s work is one of the earliest inspirations for me
JAAKKO:
i started thinking about it in general, this desire, maybe my desire, to pinpoint artists or like draw circles around them
i guess that’s where “post-internet” comes too
JAAKKO:
i’m thinking if there’s a way to approach work without the idea of this sphere of influence / sociality, altho it is also important of course to see artists as formations / many-headed growths
KATJA:
i think these circles kind of exist of course
but they are not venn diagrams
they are networks, clusters
JAAKKO:
i’m thinking of bacteria or lichen
KATJA:
based on people going to school together, doing co-labs, sharing aesthetic vibes
yeah rhizome
and of course i did that myself at some point: asked myself whose work i am into at this point, what word could capture the moment and similarities, etc: and so post-internet survival guide happened
JAAKKO:
do you feel like there is a friction between the cultures, these growths / rhizomes and The Individual
like how do you feel about being an artist, The Artist
KATJA:
yeah i think I feel cornered now to be the Artist
like i could earlier curate things, do editorial and graphic design work, collaborations, all as one flow of practice … now i have to make some major Artistic gestures, often by myself
JAAKKO:
it’s interesting how things somehow only become recognizable and Real for the art system through individual practices
the like slime of the collective is harder to historicize
KATJA:
there is no mechanism in place to fully engage and support practices with blurry edges
and that of course affects my output
or like now i realize i have to still do stuff that is less defined, but it is better to go against the art system flows
JAAKKO:
i think it’s interesting how you’ve managed that in the past, like moving from semiotics to design to curating to art
it feels like that’s how the world should be now, like interdisciplinary and fluid
KATJA:
i mean i was not officially an artist until my first solo show i guess
JAAKKO:
did you feel like there was a lot of friction in moving through these different scenes or was it a “natural” progression?
KATJA:
yeah definitely, and with lots of subtlety :: i see people whose little instagram feed is like the most sensitive art work … but it is just too fluid to be registered
the natural thing about it was that i just kind of told myself to follow my interests in the most real honest way, and once the field, like graphic design, felt limited, i had to switch
but it was also just a chaotic process of bouncing between schools, internships, money gigs
until i could “make a living” from Art
JAAKKO:
i think at the eve of your Venice debut there is this temptation to sort of smooth out the past
to like make it seem as if it was inevitable and logical
or that seems to be how artists’ practices are written about
although from observing your work in the last 5-6 years it does feel like there is something inevitable
like there is some constant frequency flowing through your activities
KATJA:
there is definitely nothing obvious about how i started and ending up doing Venice, there was like 0.000000000000000001 chance of that happening
i think in some sense i just got mad lucky, and i will have to pay for it somehow eventually
JAAKKO:
survivor’s guilt
KATJA:
haha maybe yeah, also massive impostor syndrome
JAAKKO:
yeah impostor is somehow a good term to bring into the discussion
like not in terms of you as a person
but i think in your work there is something about things posing as other things, trying to pass
like the robots that mimic the movement of a parent cradling a child
or hard aluminum 2d planes trying to pose as soft cute animals
but it also doesn’t feel that the works are fakes, but more like their true nature is posing as something other
if that makes sense lol
like actors
KATJA:
i get what you are saying
like with animals, the most hd images of them are still not them
this sounds like a dumb-profound statement, but it is often kind of not obvious
these are image files, artifacts, dead
capturing something which is an animal
but it can still affect us as if it is a little bit of a wild animal
you cannot help it somehow
and so this power of the image to manipulate your attention and emotions
JAAKKO:
it’s also weird how this image production gets more and more sophisticated while the actual ecosystems that support the material existence of these animals becomes more and more degraded / low-resolution
KATJA:
yeah definitely, in some cases there are more image files of certain species than actual live representatives of these species left on the planet
and the files are probably what stays around, and their dna strains
JAAKKO:
i was wondering how you feel about these terms
animal & nature
cos it also feels like your work is maybe trying to destabilize them
or somehow saying that your work is “about animals” feels off
KATJA:
definitely … after post-internet, “animals” is the second most common summary of my work
but i get it of course
JAAKKO:
it’s interesting to me that the ecological aspect seems kind of underrepresented
or maybe i’m reading the wrong media lol
but i feel like for me the most common summary of your work is that it’s about like images and how they circulate
KATJA:
yeah which is level 01 to me somehow
JAAKKO:
like that they are about the potential virality of cute animal imagery more than about “actual” animals
KATJA:
it is about images as machines of attention grabbing
partially
and it is also about the unfathomable complexity of the animal forms that have been evolving for billions of years which is hardly comparable to our current “advanced technologies”
and this is the tension and angle to displace the animal / nature category
like a marabou bird, or an octopus is so much more mysterious that an ipad, but we just eat them or they just exist eating our garbage
and there are all kinds of tensions and trajectories in that
their complexity then translates into their “viral” potential
as images
JAAKKO:
it’s almost like a biblical tension
like we are jealous of “The Creator”
and wanna make our own things
golden calf
like those new robots by Festo
the flying penguin robot and the kangaroo robot
KATJA
and like biomimicry is the ultimate goal somehow
yeah exactly or boston dynamics
JAAKKO:
it’s in architecture too of course, like biomorphic forms
i was thinking about cat and dog memes
like how many representations there are of cute pets for people who can’t have pets
KATJA:
it has been there since the first architectures, since the first art, since the first costume
JAAKKO:
but i think it’s interesting that the representations you have chosen to make of these living beings are quite cold
like they are cooler / less affective which negatively effects their virality
KATJA:
Jane Goodall, the famous chimp primatologist, once said she supported viral images of cute chimps, because overall they do bring them funding for their conservation practices … but even the fact that this is an actual economic cycle — from viral image to cash, is so weird still to me
JAAKKO:
it’s interesting tho that since your work is mainly existing online as installation shots, it communicates detachment
like the lonely animal in sterile cube
while the cute animal photos aim for a more “naturalistic” (lol) look
like they lack the “critical” distance of the surrounding sterile architecture
KATJA:
yeah because ultimately i guess i am kind of deconstructing it a little bit, especially by presenting it as art objects … isolated images of animals, printed on cold kind of cheap display material — isolated value somehow
which of course partially stops being its origins, and partially still functions, but already in a different economy with different codes
the white cube codes, and early-on tumblr codes
JAAKKO:
it was an interesting deviation when you made the work where you placed this bird in the context of a mars landscape
like that the Actor got a Stage
KATJA:
yeah more and more i think of my exhibitions as sets
JAAKKO:
i think it would be interesting to think about your work in relation to props and stage design
KATJA:
where something is taking place and where something is documented
yeah basically one of the few things i can say about my Venice project is that me and Kati, the curator, are taking The Blade Runner, as a reference
and for me especially, some of the sets of Blade Runner
and Aliens
JAAKKO:
blade runner loops back to mimicry / imitation too
like trying to pass as human
someone was saying that the paradox of blade runner is how the main character has to suppress his empathy to kill the androids
but then his empathy is supposed to be the thing that separates him from them
KATJA:
yeah i re-watched it recently and it felt insane how many cross points it has with my work
synthetic animals
JAAKKO:
they’re not androids really i guess..
oh true the owl too!
“do you like our owl?”
that would be a good show title hehe
KATJA:
there is a whole thing about real and synthetic animals, and the difference in the price between them
and the idea of an eye who is looking and what and how they see it
humans build androids to colonize space, but what ends up happening is that androids are the ones seeing the unseen worlds for the first time with their eyes, like the Mars rovers
JAAKKO:
in a way the cut outs are more comforting
like they are old school in the sense that they are extremely easily differentiated
from the real thing
they are not uncanny valley
KATJA:
for sure, also i had to respond to the codes existing in the art world in a way too … like “you want a sculpture?” — “here is a sculpture”
in the most simple way
JAAKKO:
i was reading something recently about the roy batty speech in the end of the movie, like how his ability to have this aesthetic experience is like this last claim to a right to exist
KATJA:
my work in a way still starts on the screen
yes, it is beautiful
JAAKKO:
in a way the androids and the animals have to market themselves to humans in the same way
like it’s also sad in that sense, like we have to be moved to protect / let live
affective labor lol
KATJA:
yeah exactly, you got it … this idea that nonhuman beings have a right to see the world at all, and to live in it..
and this right is barely acknowledged
JAAKKO:
i guess they are called Replicants not androids
KATJA:
yeah whatevs
JAAKKO:
haha
we can change it when we edit lol
or just leave this observation here like oops
KATJA:
i mean we know what we are talking about, there is an android in Aliens
but yes, it’s like how the only interface with other beings is how human-like they are
animals only go viral when they do cute human-like things
and it’s cute that they can’t be us or something
Aliens adds up to this in a way that the beings there are so mysterious and terrifying and powerful, that they kind of almost get to destroy humanity — and for me it is more representing our AI fears
JAAKKO:
was it the 4th alien movie that tried to kinda humanize the alien, like it was a mother or something
and Ripley was more alien too
she was starting to understand that point of view
KATJA:
yeah she was a hybrid
JAAKKO:
also her failed clones that she smashes
we should put screen shots of all this shit as illustrations
have you seen The Thing?
JAAKKO:
i feel like The Thing overlaps with your work too, like the alien that wants to take the shape of these other beings but then it’s always caught in the middle of an awkward transition
and creates these like monstrous but also sculptural and magnificent half forms
KATJA:
Yeah there’s always something uncanny about these transitional forms
that’s the baby swings in a way
like what the f, these bird-like medical machines that cradle babies
did a military designer come up with those? how come they look so awkward
and for me the interesting part is how they just exist in the most banal way in the homes of millions of families, as if it is all chill
JAAKKO:
yess
there’s an interesting difference between the cutouts and the baby swings
like the cutouts are very german vibe, like ok here are these things that exist
but then the baby swings are really baroque and ornamental
like you decorated them to be these weird plant reptile characters
like that baroque painting of the head made of vegetables
i remember it seemed like a dramatic shift when i saw them the first time
KATJA:
yeah it had to be a shift
i was thinking about making something in between a robot and a jurassic park prop
and the challenge was to make something with a strong presence, but the opposite of the flat animal images
and i didn’t want to make any obvious robots
once i had the skeletal shapes of the swings in my studio it felt like the next step should be this very simple ornamentation
like a christmas tree, or a traditional dress
inspired by Isa Genzken in a way, but with more symmetry
JAAKKO:
there is something aristocratic about the swings
too
like they could be at home in a palace
KATJA:
yeah that is maybe the symmetry
they look like weird altars too
JAAKKO:
right now imagining them in some kind of gilded room among venice’s artificial waterways
in a way that city is a good context for your work
because it’s all about like the mastery of “nature”
but it’s being fucked up by nature
like literally sinking already
KATJA:
the pavilion in venice is not very fancy, not baroque
but it still has this vibe of an italian palazzo apartment, the floor and the ceiling
JAAKKO:
do you think about “context” in that sense
like in a way ur work feels resistant to stuff like that
like you’re not a super “reactive”
KATJA:
yeah i’ve been thinking to make an obvious climate change apocalypse work for a while, but it never feels right to make it really obvious
on a purely intuitive level it feels wrong to be direct
but “cooking” the work, the context is very important
in blade runner the theme of a climate apocalypse is also on the background
and so the way i’m thinking about the pavilion and the whole thing, is as a set of post-collapse
JAAKKO:
i guess there are two ways to think about context
like the political / societal / historical context and then the like material / architectural context of wherever you’re showing
but i guess in this sense they are quite wrapped up in each other, like venice is collapse and larger context is also collapse
fin-de-siecle
KATJA:
yeah
and the collapse of europe (dark humor)
JAAKKO:
yes
it feels like our time is characterized by this sadness
about an end that is coming
and feels inevitable
which seems somehow oddly similar to europe before WWI
altho of course any other time could be compared
fall of rome, medieval times etc
KATJA:
yeah i think you are good at actually capturing these connections in your video works
like even this thing of bringing the medieval back into present, changing the meaning of the present
like we are still in many ways in the same world
in Estonia the medieval is part of the landscape and tourism industry still, so it never went away … in venice the renaissance is still part of the landscape ..
not sure where i’m going with this, but i guess these continuities are suddenly more obvious to me: things can and have collapsed several times, within very few generations from each other
growing up it felt like things can only get better, but that feeling is kind of gone
JAAKKO:
we are in the middle of a mass extinction event
but it’s weird to think that there have already been five other ones
it’s also interesting in relation to the art world, how art somehow worships history and archive
or it’s like both totally amnesiac and forcing “contemporaneity”
but it is also protecting like slide projectors and film reels and bronze casting and lithography
like an umbrella to all these soon extinct manufacturing techniques
i guess there is no question here yet hehe
KATJA:
i read this super interesting article about how plexiglass and plastics are actually not that permanent — plexi boxes develop “acid rains”, bacteria eats through plastics, etc.. a lot of these contemporary synthetic materials are actually more vulnerable than pottery
JAAKKO:
your work, and the work of a lot of people in our network, coming up in this system via “looking futuristic”
like feels like in the past five years there have been soo many shows about the future
but then i think the sense of an actual livable future is disappearing
KATJA:
yeah for me the example of early Russian futurist aesthetic is very interesting — how it aged
and i think it aged in an interesting way
JAAKKO:
and maybe that futurism was also a syndrome of / parallel to the chaos of the first world war
KATJA:
yeah or like it is clear that most people won’t have the access to the “livable” part of the future
and also weird to think again about archives and museums, when all this art value might just get wiped out
JAAKKO:
it’s kind of a simulation
like i think about it all the time, how will we be remembered
what is going to be left behind
it’s kinda like the “anthropocene”
like for that word to matter we have to first imagine a geologist that lives 100,000 years in the future
and needs to have a name for whatever this was
which is like a really abstract seeming projection right now
i think the same goes for post-internet
like it’s the name that this stuff could be described with if there is art history in the future
or things become “history” in 30 months
KATJA:
it is also about what gets to be fossilized and what doesn’t too
not everything will be discoverable even
so the view of us from 100,000 will already be distorted
and even the view of what we did in 2010 has been distorted since 2013
so yes, 30 months hehe
JAAKKO:
yeah, we get back to the beginning of the chat in a nice way hehe
like how collectivity, slimy online culture blobs
maybe disappear because they’re not an anecdote, not a narrative
but The Artists might remain in history because individual narratives are strong enough as a format
KATJA:
yeah there is almost no paleontological research of mushrooms, because they hardly left any fossils..although we know that mushrooms are one of the largest clusters of life
it is a crude form, the individual, it is carried by gossip and faces, and those are remembered better
JAAKKO:
there is something nice about that thought with the mushrooms
like the mushroom is a dance while the mammal is a sculpture
or something
KATJA:
mushrooming as a performance
JAAKKO:
like the mammal leaves an awkward skeleton behind
mushroom just does its shit and disappears
KATJA:
mushrooming as tumblr
JAAKKO:
mushrooms as status updates
KATJA:
of the network that lies beneath the ground
JAAKKO:
lolll
KATJA:
mammals with their large eyes and cute fur, it is our main mental paradigm and our main limitation to imagine other possibilities in life
JAAKKO:
yesss
it’s interesting tho how far this metaphor can go, or like if it is also somehow flattening out the profound weirdness of technology as a thing in itself
KATJA:
even that still for the average curator it is difficult to imagine code as art, versus sculpture as art
what do you mean flattening?
JAAKKO:
yeah, it’s interesting also, in relation to net art, how insulted people are that the institutions didn’t like subsume it
KATJA:
and i kind of understand their frustration
JAAKKO:
even though the point seemed to be that it would be something that couldn’t be subsumed, that would be more free
KATJA:
also maybe coding already assumes a different art system
the museums are just not the right fit
it is like the difference between religious art vs autonomous art
once you assume a subjectivity independent from God, you don’t need a church
haha
im going deep somewhere
JAAKKO:
yes, i feel like we are peeking into a future where the current institutions are obsolete
which is why being an artist right now is so full of friction / frustration and maybe guilt
KATJA:
basically i think we are a conflicted generation
we are on the edge of all these things, ultimately still pulled towards the old fashioned institutions
JAAKKO:
like guilt of playing to the old order when u can smell the new mushroom scene coming up
that ‘s very venice too
KATJA:
but in our hearts we know things will and have to radically mutate
yes
basically this
JAAKKO:
like every national pavilion has at least once or every second time done the “fuck nationalism” pavilion
KATJA:
so my venice project is a huge contradiction too
from start to finish
JAAKKO:
like the Finnish one it was listed in the open call as the goal that the pavilion has to critically reflect on national identity or whatever
which is kinda like hmm maybe just discontinue the pavilion and give the money to open borders activism
KATJA:
and the ambassador will still be at the opening giving a speech
JAAKKO:
yess
it’s like double consciousness
Replicants
survival
KATJA:
i think i will be a walking issue in this too: during my press conference the nation will see i make lots of mistakes while speaking Estonian
which i am ok with, embracing the contradictions
doing my best
JAAKKO:
yes, this was something i wanted to ask about also
trying to quickly google but coming up empty
i just remembered this early project of yours
Lasnamäe natives?
which was combining District 9 alien aesthetics with the area in Tallinn you grew up
KATJA:
yeah i think i took it down
never felt like it was finished
JAAKKO:
yeah
i really liked that project, while i agree that it felt unresolved possibly
KATJA:
one of the reasons i could never finish it was that i could not imagine my conversation partner for it
it was filled with too much insider info for a global circulation, and back then i did not have a lot of peers in Estonia itself
so it felt like i did it for a non-existing viewer
maybe it would be interesting to resurface that now
JAAKKO:
like that it’s not made for the people who grew up where you grew up?
but for a more detached audience?
if it’s in the art world
KATJA:
it would be made for someone who grew up there with me, but none of those people “get” contemporary art
so it had to be for a more general audience, but then the meanings and visuals had too many local meanings
JAAKKO:
yeah, it’s a really tricky problem
like how to weave in history and experience if it’s not a “general” communicable experience necessarily
like i feel like only people who grew up in places like new york have this life that people are used to looking at, or have seen several different kinds of representations of
KATJA:
yeah me and you get nyc references, because of all the movies
and so it is easier to make those references as default
JAAKKO:
it’s an interesting thing about your work too, like that you are not mining your identity/experience very directly
in a way it makes your work compressed, like it’s light enough to travel
because there is nothing too specific that would weigh it down
but that also feels like the thing that made the berlin biennial as a whole kinda heavy and tiring
for example
like the sort of unbearable lightness of things that look general
KATJA:
yeah, not many things were placed
but maybe that was also the point … the gooey global mediocre similarity of forms
or the vague feeling of being in the future
JAAKKO:
yes
i think “futurity” seems to mean that often now
comes from like all the specificity disappearing
like cleaned from trauma or something
KATJA:
i think in my case i have a long history of escapism from my current social environment
so for me this global thing always helped mentally to detach myself from my reality
and that was main coping mechanism while on the cold bus from school
i could listen to radiohead, play a computer game or whatever and completely disassociate
and that is still kind of how i operate … i am very sensitive to reality but half of the time i have to disassociate to deal with it
(lol using this chat as my therapy session)
JAAKKO:
yes
that is a big upside about the white cube
like that it creates this “neutral” / calm environment where things can be contemplated as if without a context in a way
or with this over-historical context that is not somehow unstable or messy or full
KATJA:
and my work is born in that feeling of escapism: let’s dream about what the Mars rovers see now, instead of the rise of extreme right
maybe why i could transition into the white cube art system too, it supported this
i have a great deal of respect for people who are not able to be escapists and actually fight in the real world
JAAKKO:
yeah, i was googling your work and there’s this image of you and a bird and an upward arrow in the mars rover stage design you made in the berliner zeitung office building
which feels somehow accurate as a description of the world out of joint #2016 style
KATJA:
haha yeah
JAAKKO:
i guess distance is necessary in any case, and all distance is maybe not escapism, or hopefully not
like there has to be ways to zoom out of a situation
KATJA:
yeah and people have different degrees and forms of engagement
so as long as not everyone is like me, the world has a chance
JAAKKO:
i guess everyone has that feeling now, or seems like it
like the feeling of what one does being not enough
in relation to current world events
like also all the activists etc i know
KATJA:
because it is obviously not?
like we are still sliding into something
i’ve been browsing lots of reddit recently and i get a sense that most people are in this weird manic state of losing control
from all spectra
alt rights are also in panic mode
JAAKKO:
i mean i think this sense of urgency, like “something has to be done” is also what is making us slide into shit
and what creates violent acts
KATJA:
the hysteria
JAAKKO:
it’s so weird to think that if we could all somehow just stop trying to fix things the ecosystem would simply go on and fix itself
like that there’s nothing essentially wrong with the world
besides our attempts to like “fix it”
like that the inactivity is not the problem, the activity is, although this is also a lazy person’s justification for watching seinfeld at home
lol
KATJA:
yeah so maybe a dose of sit-back escapism is healthy
all of a sudden i watched all seasons of the Walking Dead
because it matched the mood this fall
like i was in nyc, with protests against trump happening … but i was in my airbnb watching the walking dead
JAAKKO:
zombies are interesting
or like the idea of the undead
the collapse too
maybe something like the replicants
KATJA:
the walking dead is referring to the living too, uncanny forms
JAAKKO:
the walking dead and those kinda post-apocalyptic narratives are i guess a kind of fantasy of simplicity
like that there is no bureaucracy anymore
and all desires are simple
KATJA:
yeah and the laws are primitive
JAAKKO:
like braaaiinss
or just to survive and stay human
KATJA:
back to tribalism too
JAAKKO:
yes
anarcho primitivist
KATJA:
that’s the wet dream
JAAKKO:
the mushroom fantasy
KATJA:
i think mushroom civilization would actually be the opposite of the walking dead
it is like the antidote
to our mammalian issues
JAAKKO:
i remember watching this donna haraway / anna tsing lecture
which was referencing nausicaa
like how the mushrooms in that are somehow cleaning toxicity
like the same as the plastic eating mushrooms etc
like we are the problem child and maybe these other species clean up our shit when we are skeletons later on
also the mushroom that lives in the chernobyl reactor and eats radiation
it’s funny how the hopeful futures are about mushrooms, like jenna sutela’s work too
no more humans, just slime mold covering the earth
KATJA:
yesss
im reading now Haraway’s latest book: and she is basically pushing this idea of “staying with the trouble” — like avoid the escapism, avoid the speculative utopias/distopias, be mindful and deal with what is happening to the world right now
and really look deeply into the present: find the mushrooms who are eating the plastics, and relate yourself to them
it is not about the anthropos, it is about seeing ourselves in connections to all these other beings, like mushrooms and gaining mutual empathy
she is brilliant, so it never sounds too “hippy”, she is on point and critical
and there is joy in that, not just panic
JAAKKO:
i have been really moved by her realism
like she is not overtly optimistic but also not desolate
she had this lecture that somehow starts with like how all biological life through time has been relational
like there has never been a living thing that is “separate”
KATJA:
yeah, and not too far out with her theories, it always comes back to beings and people and earth
JAAKKO:
which makes the cutouts feel doubly cutouts
like cutout of aluminum and also the representation of the animal placed in isolation (cut out) in a way that is impossible
or like would kill them
if they weren’t already images
haha
KATJA:
yes but then you know it gets activated by human eyes and emotional systems, the visual patterns of these animals
it is a form of capsuling though, like i’m collecting reality in a way and isolating it
JAAKKO:
ooops i have to go now
KATJA:
ok this was fun! we can each find some images, and then we send them to the magazine
*Header photo: Katja Novitskova “Storm Time Approximation (hominids, IR thermal vision)”, 2016. Photo: Martha Fleming-Ives. Courtesy of Greene Naftali
